Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 8 May 2024

We have received apologies from our Leas-Chathaoirleach, Senator Horkan. The purpose of today's meeting is to meet with bus and coach providers to discuss issues relating to the industry. On behalf of the committee, I am very pleased to welcome, from Bus Éireann, Mr. Stephen Kent, chief executive officer, Mr. Allen Parker, chief customer officer, and Ms Jean O'Sullivan, chief people officer. From Dublin Bus, Bus Átha Cliath, I welcome Mr. Billy Hann, chief executive officer; Mr. Ciarán Rogan, chief customer officer; and Mr. Philip Donohue, director of HR. From Go-Ahead Ireland, I welcome Ms Dervla McKay, managing director, and Ms Niamh Swords, operations director. From the Coach Tourism and Transport Council of Ireland, CTTC, I welcome Mr. William Martin, chairperson, and executive members Mr. J.J. Kavanagh and Mr. Brendan Crowley.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in nature with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not be able to permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via Microsoft Teams to confirm, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Without further ado, I welcome the witnesses. There is a big gang of them here today and we have a few of their opening statements. First, I invite Mr. Stephen Kent on behalf of Bus Éireann to make his opening statement.

I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, Deputies and Senators for inviting us to take part in today’s session. I am pleased to be joined by Mr. Allen Parker and Ms Jean O’Sullivan to present to members today. We are very pleased to share the challenges facing our organisation within the industry but I also want to affirm that there continues to be many positive developments, which also need to be supported.

Bus Éireann continues to experience unprecedented demand for its services, supporting greater modal shift, improved social accessibility and inclusivity, local economy growth and we are now really delivering very important climate action initiatives in line with Government policy, such as the decarbonisation of public transport. Last year, we carried a record 106 million passenger journeys across our public service obligation, PSO, routes, the school transport scheme and our commercial services operated under the Expressway brand. We operate all 214 of our public service obligation routes under contract to the National Transport Authority, NTA. These routes service a very comprehensive network of regional and inter-regional city, town and rural locations that deliver a nationwide bus service for communities across Ireland, helping to make life better. Last year, we delivered a 27% growth in passenger journeys across PSO compared to the previous year and strong growth continues into 2024.

We operate the school transport scheme on behalf of the Department of Education. We now transport a record 163,000 children to school every day, with in excess of 9,500 routes across the country – 38% more than we did five years ago – and this undertaking is the largest such school transport scheme in Europe.

Expressway is our commercial service, for which we have 14 routes, and last year saw significant year-on-year growth as we now complete more than 4 million passenger journeys annually. Services have expanded to meet demand including increased capacity to County Donegal and we have 150 daily departures to and from Dublin Airport across seven routes. We look forward to delivering for our customers as we approach the busy summer season.

These significant achievements would not be possible without the support of all of our stakeholders, including our dedicated and hard-working staff. We now have in excess of 3,000 employees directly employed by Bus Éireann from 51 different countries. We value all of our people and we continually strive to make our company a great place to work.

While the growth of our organisation in recent years is something we are very proud of, it has also brought fresh new challenges. There will always be challenges to overcome in a safety-critical business, which is not only growing but also undertaking a significant and progressive transformation in terms of digitalisation, decarbonisation and scale.

I want to focus today on what I see as the three top challenges facing Bus Éireann and the bus industry in Ireland today and especially over the next three years. The first is the recruitment of drivers and craft workers to meet current and future demand for our services. Staff shortages emerged as an issue for us last autumn, initially for school bus contractors and then for mechanics in our Dublin depot and most recently for drivers in our Cork depot, which impacted service delivery. Recruitment of D class licence holders is proving challenging, as there is a more limited pool of these drivers available and high demand exists across the sector. Mechanics are also in short supply, in Cork and Dublin in particular.

We have recruited nearly 500 drivers since the beginning of 2023 but we still have 66 vacancies across the country, with Cork proving to be the most challenging region for us today. We have started, and will continue with, an intensive recruitment campaign. We have deployed extensive advertising and undertaken over 30 open days this year alone. At those open days, we invite expressions of interest, provide an opportunity to meet with our staff, and people also have an opportunity to even try driving a bus. We have set up our own dedicated training schools in Cork, Dublin, Galway, Limerick and Waterford to train drivers who have B class licences to achieve the requisite D class licence. This takes resources, facilities, buses and investment, and while we are making progress, induction and training takes time and we know there is even greater demand coming, particularly with future BusConnects, Connecting Ireland and the planned expansion of the school transport scheme.

We are working with agencies that have networks outside Ireland to try to recruit drivers from other countries but we will need to step up this activity. However, low availability of suitable housing is also hampering these efforts. We will need more personnel and I believe there is a role for other State agencies such as the education and training boards, SOLAS and the National Apprenticeship Office to assist, and we have started that liaison. Over the next three years, due to retirements and new services, we will need well in excess of 2,000 drivers for PSO and school transport services. This level of demand requires a more concerted and structured programme, directed at employment creation where there is a huge demand and urgent need for drivers with aptitude who will find a very rewarding career with competitive pay in companies like ours.

Today we also have 12 mechanic vacancies, predominantly in our Cork and Dublin depots. We undertook a benchmark exercise on pay and have improved terms for mechanics in January to ensure our remuneration is competitive and have also increased our quota requirement for apprentices. As our fleet expands and new skills emerge as we electrify our depots, we will need many more positions, particularly as the regional city fleets could expand by more than 50% under BusConnects. In the short term, we continue to build a pipeline of candidates who can be trained to become bus drivers and craft workers but until we fill all these positions, we will be challenged in delivering the best service we can. We will always seek to minimise any disruption to the schedule for our customers and if we have caused any inconvenience to anyone in recent weeks, I apologise and assure all of our customers that we are working hard to fill positions as quickly as possible.

The second area is congestion and lack of bus priority measures. I welcome the recent public consultation commenced by the Department of Transport on a new strategy to manage and reduce congestion. Lack of prioritisation outside of Dublin is a real challenge for Bus Éireann.

Compounded by the growth in population, especially in our regional cities, meeting our punctuality targets is proving extremely difficult to do on at least 50% of our PSO routes. Lack of enforcement of bus priority and of illegal bus stop use is also a negative input. It needs infrastructural change and enforcement is also needed for significant improvement. We can change timetables, and we do, but run times now vary so much across the weekdays and weekends as new travel patterns have developed due to hybrid working that it is inevitable that we can run late on occasion when the bus is trapped in traffic. In many instances, if funding is available, we can and do deploy additional buses and drivers to assist the schedule and keep the service on time, but there is a significant cost to improving reliability and punctuality on this basis alone.

The real solution lies in creating more dedicated lanes and ensuring enforcement of the use of these lanes, as we see in many other countries. At present, just 2% of the kilometres travelled by our vehicles in Cork are in bus lanes. On the 220 and 220X route, it will cost an estimated €1.5 million to further improve reliability and punctuality on that route, owing in large part to congestion issues. Money will fix it for some time, assuming the NTA has funding available, and may help both deliver more punctual services to our customers and help our company avoid punctuality penalties. However, it is not the long-term solution as the economy and our population grows. This is just one example of an extremely successful route – a 24 hour service – with the best value fare which would convince anyone to leave their car behind. It could be much better, however. We need to address the allocation of road space. We know the pinch points and we need the collaboration of all stakeholders to deliver the changes that are required. We know we can deliver the service and what our customers expect and we need to take advantage of the growth in public transport, which has started in earnest. That will only happen through collective action and re-allocation of road space or the introduction of bus priority measures.

The third area I wish to highlight is the pace at which we can transition the fleet to lower or zero emission technologies to achieve our climate action targets. Increasing sustainable mobility and our drive for net zero emissions by 2050 underpins all we do. In recent months, we have marked one year of a fully electric bus service in Athlone. This service saw a 25% increase in customers in the first 12 months of our operation. The people of Limerick will now enjoy the roll-out of our first city EV fleet after a major investment by the NTA. We remain committed to helping the country achieve its climate action plan goals and bring about modal shift as we move away from car dependency. While progress on decarbonisation of bus services is now advancing for our cities and towns, more support is needed, specifically in transitioning our coach fleet rather than our bus fleet, which operate longer distances. This transition will require the support of the coach manufacturers for new alternatives to diesel but the capital cost of change is also a major consideration for all commercial operators. Currently over 95% of the schools operation is carried out by contractors with many of them using coaches. Transitional supports need to be further examined to help support the capital case for Expressway and other commercial operators to begin the transition and reduce emissions, particularly as more 4,000 vehicles which operate today will have to be replaced over the next five years.

In conclusion, notwithstanding the three major challenges I have highlighted, we are optimistic about the future. Collaboration and communication is the key to success in helping us to overcome the challenges of today and meet the needs of tomorrow. We believe it is possible to double passenger journeys from our current levels, which as I have already mentioned stood at 106 million journeys last year, and we will always strive to meet the growing demand for our services safely, but safety will always be our first priority. We offer quality jobs and work for a customer-focused company which is dedicated to delivering green, reliable and good value public transport to our country as we sustainably connect people and their communities. I thank the Cathaoirleach for inviting Bus Éireann and we look forward to the discussion.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation. I am joined by Mr. Philip Donohue, director of HR and development, and Mr. Ciarán Rogan, chief customer officer. Our work in Dublin Bus is based on a formula of service excellence and a customer-centred approach. Day in, day out, drivers, mechanics and all of Dublin Bus's employees reinforce this formula. My brief opening statement will focus on four challenges facing Dublin Bus, namely, safety and security, skills, customer demand, traffic congestion and variability. While there is no cause for pessimism, there is a need for action in the face of these challenges.

Dublin Bus recognises the rise in antisocial behaviour incidents across the city and the public transport network. I have consistently advocated for collaborative efforts from all stakeholders, urging the establishment of a dedicated forum to tackle these challenges collectively. I am pleased to report we are currently engaging with the Department of Transport on the establishment of such a forum. Dublin Bus has commissioned an independent review of our own procedures and we will use this forum to share outcomes and any recommendations. I also note the Cabinet's approval for the establishment of a new task force focusing on the rejuvenation of Dublin city centre. I expect that public transport will be a key focus, and Dublin Bus, as Ireland's largest public transport provider, would welcome the opportunity to contribute in any way. We will support any action that would make transport services safer. While most will rarely, if ever, encounter antisocial behaviour on our services, our priority is ensuring every driver and customer feels safe on every journey, on every route, every time. Even one incident is one too many.

Dublin Bus has a proven track record of recruitment. Over the past two years, we have recruited 870 drivers and 40 mechanics. We have also completed a very successful female recruitment campaign, which has seen 94 female drivers hired. In the case of mechanics, we have recruited from Europe and in the coming months will welcome new mechanics from the Philippines to the Dublin Bus team. The success of our recruitment campaigns should not overshadow the ongoing challenge posed by the prevailing skill shortages affecting not only Dublin Bus but also the wider transport sector.

We are ambitious as a company. We are rolling out new electric buses, implementing BusConnects and introducing additional services across Dublin. We delivered over 146 million customer journeys in 2023. This number is likely to exceed 150 million by the end of 2024. We must recruit more mechanics and skilled workers if we are to have any hope of meeting future customer demand. The skilled worker pool here in Ireland is shallower, however, than it should be. The reality is that we have lost an entire generation of apprentices. As a country, we now need to start to really ensure that we are championing the skills industry and apprenticeship programmes. Dublin Bus for its part has increased its number of apprenticeships in recent years and currently has 60 apprentices at various stages of training with a further 23 starting later this year.

Last year saw our highest customer numbers in recent years and we expect this year to deliver the highest number of customer journeys in Dublin Bus’s history. Demand for our services is growing month on month. I want to assure the committee that we are not just relying on BusConnects for investment in new services but also introducing additional services on many routes across the greater Dublin area. We continue to add additional services on many routes and are seeing increased customer demand across the network. We are determined to meet demand and grow our customer base. While we can and will improve the customer experience, making our buses more comfortable and safer, the real key to attracting more people to use public transport is faster and more reliable journey times.

The biggest barrier to faster and more reliable bus services is the dominance of the private car in Dublin. The committee is aware of my views on congestion. Six out of every ten cars are using the city centre as a route to reach a destination outside of the city centre. They take up vital road space and increase journey times for people using Dublin Bus. Moving this traffic out of the city, as the NTA and Dublin City Council transport plan seeks to do, should not impact economic activity or cultural life but should actually improve it. Today, it can take up to 29 minutes to travel just 10 km in Dublin. This clearly is not going to convince people to leave the car at home. I find this doubly frustrating because the reason for this slow progress is mostly congestion caused by cars. Ask yourself this, is it right that a line of cars with an average of one occupant per vehicle delays a bus with 85 people on it?

It is also becoming more challenging to run a consistently punctual service while operating in a city with large variances in daily traffic congestion. For example, Mondays and Fridays are much lighter traffic days than Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays. This is a consequence of the post-pandemic world, where remote working is now the norm. Change is undeniably challenging. Old ways, old interests and old thinking rarely go gently or quietly. However, this should not deter us from confronting the tough decisions necessary for shaping a better Dublin. We must prioritise the collective good over individual comfort and ensure that progress for the city is not dictated by convenience. Bus operators need more priority. We need the NTA and DCC traffic plan implemented in full. We need priority bus corridors. We need to break the dominance of the private car. We need more certainty.

In conclusion, this is not about being anti-car. It is about being pro-Dublin, that is, a greener, cleaner, quieter Dublin that is a more pleasant place to live and work. It is a Dublin with more space for buses and in particular the people on them, allowing faster, more reliable journey times. This is not some utopia but is something we can achieve. People are voting with their feet and are using Dublin Bus in record numbers. In a competitive and uncertain environment, however, we cannot take recent progress for granted. I have set out some of the barriers to even greater progress. I am, however, confident we can overcome them once we all work together and Dublin, not just Dublin Bus, will be the real winner. I thank the committee and look forward to members' questions.

I thank the Cathaoirleach. Good afternoon. My name is Dervla McKay, and I am the managing director of Go-Ahead Ireland. I am joined today by my colleague, Niamh Swords, who is director of operations. We want to thank the committee for the invitation to today’s session to discuss issues facing the public transport industry alongside our fellow public transport operators in Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann, and the CTTC.

Go-Ahead Ireland recently marked five years in service operations in the greater Dublin area, an achievement we are very proud of. In that time, we have grown to a team of more than 800 colleagues, running 33 routes, including five commuter routes. In 2023, we reported a 33% increase in passenger numbers, the highest percentage increase in the capital. Our commuter services also carried over 2 million passengers in 2023, a 54% year-on-year increase and one of the highest outside of Dublin city centre.

Since our last presentation to the committee in November 2023, we have been busy with continued investment in our local communities, as evidenced by our contract renewal with Dublin GAA. We have taken into consideration passenger feedback on southern orbital routes and have made relevant changes to improve reliability on those routes. We have launched a recruitment campaign for the next stage of our business’s growth ahead of the next phase launch of BusConnects.

In terms of issues facing Go-Ahead Ireland as a public transport operator, we have previously spoken with the committee on issues including the certificate of professional competence and the time it takes for a fully trained bus driver to receive theirs. While the turnaround times remain largely the same as before and have not regressed, there has not been much improvement in this regard and as a result trained drivers are still slow to begin driving on routes. We continue to enjoy a positive relationship with the RSA with the service of our passengers as our shared priority and we are continuing to explore additional guidance and improvements to address existing challenges.

With regard to recruitment, our efforts are ongoing concerning driver positions where we are making continued progress. However, like other operators and the overall transport sector, we have noted a lower level of available qualified HGV mechanics. While this is currently having a limited impact, it remains a live area of concern. We are taking steps now in terms of our ongoing recruitment campaigns and our apprenticeship scheme to sustain a future pipeline of suitably qualified and trained technical experts.

Out on our routes, other operators will likely touch on the issue of traffic congestion in the city centre and Go-Ahead Ireland is not immune to this issue. The result of improper use of bus lanes combined with overcrowded streets due to car use means that the punctuality of our services can be affected and our passengers are ultimately the ones who suffer. Moving the population towards more sustainable modes of transport, including public transport like bus services, is a goal that Go-Ahead Ireland shares with other public transport operators and indeed with the Government and this committee. However, it is a goal that becomes very difficult to deliver when buses are only able to move as fast as cars or must share road space with cars. The negative effect this has on our ability to deliver punctual and reliable services cannot be overstated.

Despite the issues laid out this afternoon, Go-Ahead Ireland remains ambitious and optimistic about the second half of 2024 in terms of the level and breadth of services we will provide to our passengers. We are confident in our ability to deliver accessible and reliable public transport services. We are grateful for the opportunity to speak to the committee this afternoon about the current issues impacting public transport and how Government and industry can best collaborate to meet the needs of the communities and passengers we are all proud to serve. Go raibh maith agaibh.

I thank the Cathaoirleach. On behalf of the members of the CTTC, I would like to thank the committee for inviting us to present here today and for giving us the opportunity to discuss the very important issues affecting commercial bus operators in Ireland today. By way of introduction, I am Brendan Crowley from Wexford Bus, and I am accompanied by Mr. William Martin, chair of the CTTC, and Mr. JJ Kavanagh from JJ Kavanagh and Sons in Kilkenny.

The Coach Tourism and Transport Council of Ireland is the country’s largest representative body for commercial bus operators and we have a combined fleet of over 1,500 coaches. We are a proactive organisation operating across all sectors of public transport and tourism in Ireland. We act as a conduit between the sector, Government and other stakeholders. As a sector, we support more than 11,000 jobs across every constituency and region in Ireland. We are grateful to the committee for the invitation to be here today.

For many years the CTTC has worked collaboratively with the NTA and its predecessors on key projects, including the ITS system, otherwise known as the leap card. We fully participated at project board level and provided many hours of support with the testing of equipment to ensure the success of the leap card and the NTA’s ticketing system. More recently we worked with the NTA and other stakeholders to introduce the young adult card, YAC, to passengers travelling across the entire public transport network, which has been deemed by the NTA as a resounding success. This is evidenced by the tens of thousands of students and young people who use public transport, public and commercial, in ever increasing numbers on a daily basis. This is a clear example of how we can build on successes, using the technology available to deliver verifiable cross-sectoral systems.

Currently over 40 commercial companies participate in the YAC scheme. The scheme is not without concerns. In particular, we are concerned about maintaining the compensation rate, which is currently at 70%. Members will recall that a further fare reduction initiative was introduced by the Government as part of a package of cost-of-living measures during 2022, which saw fares on public transport reduced by 20%. Unfortunately, that spirit of collaboration and equality was absent in this case. Whether it was intentional or otherwise, we missed out on that.

This 20% fare reduction scheme initiated by Government has created an anti-competitive environment and threatens the viability of commercial bus operators which provide a valuable service, particularly on regional routes that are not served by other State operators. More than half of all kilometres on scheduled bus services in Ireland are operated by commercial operators and therefore passengers who travel on these routes are excluded from the 20% State discount scheme. This sector has grown by 52% over the past six years with zero cost to the Exchequer. The current inequity threatens the future viability of the commercial sector in a market where costs are constantly increasing.

Therefore, we ask committee members to use their influence to advocate for the passengers of all operators, whether commercial or public, to be included in any future fare reduction schemes. This was recently adopted as party policy at the Fine Gael Ard-Fheis and we ask that all other parties do likewise. As the NTA attested at this committee last week, such fare reduction schemes have been very successful in attracting passengers on to public transport and by including commercial operators, we can continue to assist the Government in achieving its stated policy of reducing dependency on car usage. The cost of including commercial bus operators in any further fare reduction schemes pales in comparison to the financial repercussions of a diminished commercial bus network and the environmental consequences of a mass return to private vehicles among disenfranchised rural communities.

Sustainability has to be at the heart of all we do, so we stress that, as an industry, we are committed to adopting best sustainable practices. Currently, CTTC members possess some of the most environmentally-friendly fleets in the market today. We remain determined to build on this progress and feel that now is the opportune time for the Government to begin working in meaningful collaboration with the private bus and coach sector to ensure the target of 50% carbon emissions reductions in transport is achieved by 2030. There are significant hurdles for operators, not least the significant costs associated with transitioning away from diesel powered fleet.

At present, the transport sector is VAT exempt, thus not allowing operators to reclaim VAT when purchasing vehicles, except for tour coaches that are deployed in very specific markets. In order to accelerate decarbonisation and encourage operators to invest in electric and lower carbon or alternatively fueled vehicles, we are asking the Government to extend VAT 71 relief. This can be enacted by the Department of Finance and is vital to assist our members in the upgrade of fleet to low emission vehicles, in line with Government policy. The current qualifying criteria relates to floor height and luggage capacity. This can be changed and has been changed in the past. Therefore, the criteria are not set in stone and could be adjusted to support the transition to low-floor sustainable vehicles.

The CTTC acknowledges the progress made to date via the alternatively fuelled heavy duty vehicle purchase grant scheme, which provides a level of financial aid for the purchase of low and zero-carbon vehicles. Yet owing to the current VAT 71 regulations, cost barriers still exist for many operators which are actively seeking to improve the environmental efficiencies of their respective fleets. We would also ask that the limited alternatively fuelled heavy duty vehicle purchase grant scheme be extended.

Commercial operators run over 92% of school transport routes on behalf of Bus Éireann, which are under contract by the Department of Education. We welcome the ambition contained in the recent school transport review. However, there are several issues we are concerned about which will severely hamper the expected growth in the system. An ongoing skills shortage combined with competition from other industries, such as the logistics industry, has resulted in a crisis in the recruitment and retention of drivers, in particular younger drivers. The industry now faces considerable barriers to continued growth and sustained service provision, in part due to the older age profile of drivers but owing more to the excessive time delays and associated costs of licence qualification, which is now in the region of €2,500. We believe this excessive financial burden is acting as a deterrent to those seeking employment within the commercial bus sector.

CTTC members are determined to safeguard continuity of service in the years ahead, while emphasising the need to ensure that all drivers strictly abide by training requirements that are expected of them. In this context, we are keen to work with other transport stakeholders to explore the feasibility of introducing an innovative driver training programme similar to other apprenticeship schemes. We believe this would allow young drivers to acquire a PSV licence while learning from experienced colleagues and without incurring a significant financial cost normally associated with obtaining a licence.

This could be facilitated through the ETB network. We welcome the inclusion of drivers and mechanics on the employment permits list as announced last year. Simplifying and streamlining the process for issuing work permits for non-EU drivers would open one pathway to easing the issue of driver shortages, while providing valuable employment opportunities for those who live or are seeking to work in Ireland.

Coach tourism remains a key component of Ireland’s tourism sector. We currently carry 2 million coach tourists across the country each year and generate 5,000 SME jobs. It is important that the coach tourism sector continues to develop sustainably and grows with the tourism industry. To protect the vibrant and sustainable coach tourism industry and the benefits this brings to the environment, visitors and the regions, we must invest in appropriate infrastructure. The lack of safe set-down and pick-up areas due in part to the reallocation of road space, particularly in our major towns and cities, is having a negative impact on visitor experience. Lack of secure overnight parking, toilet drops and passenger comfort facilities are all working against the Government’s stated policy of disincentivising private car use within the tourism sector. The decision to limit cruise ship berths in recent years at Dublin Port is equally having a negative impact, not only on retail, hospitality and visitor attractions in Dublin, but in the regions where stop-off visits generally follow those to the capital. This segment contributes more than €50 million annually to the economy and it is our contention that the Government must develop a cruise tourism policy for Ireland, in particular for Dublin, which is a popular destination for cruise passengers.

With the onset of summer, as concerts and sporting events commence, we urge that comprehensive public transport plans be mandatory for event permits issued to promoters and venues. The removal of designated coach parking from Mountjoy Square, for example, which traditionally served Croke Park, has resulted in private coaches being forced to park more than 3.5 km away, which is a 45-minute walk for patrons. Passengers from across the regions are disproportionately affected by the lack of viable set-down and pick-up options to access Dublin arenas for major games or events.

Despite the many challenges facing our members across all sectors of the industry we remain ready, willing and able to play our part. We have outlined some of the major successes and challenges facing our sector. There are many more which are currently under discussion with the relevant authorities and hopefully will find resolution soon. Not least amongst these are regulatory challenges, including issues with PSV inspections, bus stop approvals and route licensing on which we have engaged and will continue to engage with the Department of Transport. Aside from fares, there are many other opportunities for improvement such as the introduction of proper park-and-ride facilities, mobility hubs, enhancing our network of quality bus corridors and improving the overall efficiency of existing vehicles with shorter journey times which, in turn, will reduce our carbon output. A single deck coach has the potential to take between 40 and 50 cars off the road. It is estimated that a 10% reduction in peak period car usage will cut CO2 emissions by 14,500 tonnes per annum. The year 2030 is not that far away. It is time to act. Once again, on behalf of the CTTC, I thank the committee for the invitation to speak today and we are happy to hear any observations.

I thank our witnesses for their opening statements. We now proceed to members' questions. We normally give some latitude with regard to speaking time. As there may be a vote on the Order Of Business in the Dáil at 3 p.m., I propose that we try to get everyone in. If members can stick to ten minutes, we will get everyone in, and if there is no vote, members can come in for a second round of contributions.

That is fair. I thank all of the witnesses for appearing. First, I acknowledge what we have heard in the opening statements about how responsive and flexible transport companies have been in meeting the recruitment challenges that exist in this sector. We have heard that terms and conditions have been improved, as have wages. There have been positively aggressive recruitment campaigns, including looking oversea for skills. I do not think we can say that the transport companies present today are not doing everything they can to meet the skills shortage, but it is clear we have a challenge. From the opening statements and from what I hear, this is on the mechanic side in particular, and we need to see a State response to encourage more people into mechanic apprenticeships. However, I acknowledge the work that has been done. It is still challenging but it was very challenging a couple of years ago. It is clear that the trend is going in the right direction and the companies are doing everything they can.

I will speak for a moment about the meeting we had a couple of weeks ago with SIPTU regarding its Respect Transport Workers campaign. Again, it is important to get the tone correct. This is not to overstate the issue. As a public transport user, I seldom, if ever, experience anything negative on our public transport system. I think that is the experience of the majority of people. However, Mr. Hann in his opening statement said that one incident is one too many and can have a huge impact. I have a direct question on the forum that has been discussed with the Department of Transport. Is this the much-delayed transport forum that was set down in the 2008 Act or is it a more informal forum being set up? Is it the view of the transport companies that we need a dedicated unit within An Garda Síochána for transport workers and the transport sector? If there is time, I would like to come back in with some other questions.

I thank Deputy Smith for his questions and comments. The first point is that he is right that the number of people who suffer an incident of antisocial behaviour on certain Dublin Bus services is very small. However, I sympathise with any bus driver or user of our services who have experienced any type of antisocial behaviour, no matter its severity. On the forum question, I am not 100% sure. As I understand it that forum is different from the original forum from 2008 that the Deputy spoke about. I have been calling for some time to get all of the experts into a room to collectively discuss antisocial behaviour. There is a rising trend of antisocial behaviour. It is reflected in society and is not just on public transport. It is in society as a whole. We need to have an honest and open discussion at that forum to discuss the types of measures that can be implemented to try to improve the situation. Dublin Bus has a number of robust procedures in place to protect drivers and customers on our services. That includes training drivers on how to deal with conflict situations. We have 14 CCTV cameras on our buses, protective screens for drivers, communication between the driver and the central control room, a close working relationship with An Garda Síochána and lots of other procedures. We are reviewing them to see if we can make them more robust.

I do not know if transport police is the answer to the current problem. I do not believe one single measure will fix this problem. It will have to be a multifaceted approach, which may need some element of a transport security unit. Whether that is private or from An Garda Síochána needs to be discussed and agreed. We also need to expand community forums. Dublin Bus is heavily involved in community forums and working with communities, in particular those communities where we have issues with antisocial behaviour, to try to address the issues and problems we experience in those areas. There needs to be an expansion of them. We also have a robust schools programme in place whereby we educate primary school students, in particular, about the importance of public transport to their area. We need to get everyone in the room talking about all of this, and then figure out what we will focus on and go looking for funding for it. That is where it is at. That forum has not sat yet. I am looking forward to sitting on it and contributing positively to it. We will wait and see what comes from the forum. I am not sure if I have answered the Deputy's question but that is where are at with it.

I have just two things to say. We have to be practical. In our company we have a small number of cases but as has been said every case is more. We are so dispersed across the country that having the police there will not be a panacea. We still need to have good relationships with gardaí on the ground, which we do. We also had to look across the whole network and say we invest in different security companies in locations we know are hotspots. Maybe there would be an opportunity to be more co-ordinated if there were more funding. There is equally a lot of investment in CCTV, but even from our perspective a lot of CCTV at the moment is probably antiquated. We rely on getting cartridges off buses and things like that. Investing in remote access systems and so on is part of the solution. It is not just one piece; there are a number of things that would help.

I refer to an interesting point made at the meeting a couple of weeks ago.

Some Luas workers were saying that the security service on the Luas is not having a deterrent effect any more. We have repeat offenders who might jump onto a Dublin Bus, a Go-Ahead bus and then onto a Luas tram and be involved in three different incidents in the course of an hour. It can be the same person or group but they know that the private security firms do not have any powers of arrest. There is a debate around whether we should use private security or gardaí. What is required is a multifaceted approach but the debate is in this space at the moment so I just want to speak to that. I believe there is a Garda solution that has to be part of this, as opposed to just private security. There may be some progress that can be made on the CCTV side of things.

I will now ask a local question because I am getting lots of representations from airport workers who live in Skerries, Rush, Lusk and Loughshinny and work unsocial hours. Workers who live in Balbriggan or Balrothery are okay because they can use the Bus Éireann 101 service. Could the 33A, which is a Go-Ahead service, or the 33 service be expanded to provide an early service at 4 a.m.? Not only would there be demand from airport workers, but there would also be demand from holidaymakers getting early flights. As we know, parking in Dublin Airport is very difficult. Councillor Brendan Ryan and I approached Local Link but were told that it would be better to expand an existing service like the 33 or the 33A. It was suggested that we ask the NTA for an expansion rather than seeking a new service through Local Link. I would appreciate it if that could be considered.

I am encouraged to see that there is scope for flexibility in existing services and not just ways for Bus Connects to come through. I have raised the 32X service previously. Increased capacity in the mornings and a shift in the service times in the evenings to later departures would bring more college students onto that service. The express services are so important in tackling congestion and getting people out to the hinterlands of Dublin that I represent as quickly as possible. Could those services be looked at? I would welcome any comments from the witnesses on that.

I will comment on the same points, if I may. The Deputy has been in correspondence with us on the 32X service. We are happy to review the capacity there. At the moment we are pretty much at capacity or approaching it but we will review it, particularly in the mornings. We take away all of the issues that are raised in the course of a meeting like this, review them and address them if we can. The point about the airport is very well made. We operate the 41 service on a 24-hour basis and it is striking how many people actually use it throughout the night. We will certainly go back to the NTA and talk about an earlier start on other routes.

Thank you. I must say that all of the service providers have been very responsive, outside of this committee, on a week-to-week basis. The demand for, and use of, the overnight services by workers, commuters and people out socialising in the major cities is striking. Those services have been really successful. There is a huge appetite for public transport here and I fully support everything that is being done to deliver the required infrastructure.

I thank the witnesses for being here. I also thank them and all of their staff for their dedicated hard work and for the public service they provide. My first question is for Mr. Kent of Bus Éireann, which is the main operator in County Meath. There are 66 driver vacancies and 12 mechanic vacancies. Are they equally dispersed around the country or are they concentrated more in Dublin and Cork? What are the contributory factors in that regard and what is Bus Éireann doing in response? What would Bus Éireann ask of this committee and the Government in this context? Is there something this committee or the Government can do to address the identified challenges for the sector as a whole, in order to get to the place we all agree we need to get to?

The vast bulk of the vacancies are in Cork at the moment. We are hardest hit there. Approximately 37 of the 66 driver vacancies are based there. After that, there is a smaller number of vacancies in each depot. Dublin is probably getting closer to where we would have been on drivers. In the case of mechanics, it is most challenging in the Dublin region. When I appeared before the committee in August last year, we had a lot of difficulties, particularly in servicing Deputy O'Rourke's area. Since then, we came back and adjusted the pay. We conducted a review of the market to see if we could sharpen the tools. We have gone back in through the apprenticeship programme and I have made representations to try to continue to increase that. We are doing everything we possibly can and there are things coming through. As of this morning, we have 12 vacancies but there are three mechanics in the pipeline for Cork. That is going to help us to solve some of the issues we have had most recently in Cork. The last number of weeks have been a very challenging period. There is probably a longer pipeline in relation to Dublin as it stands, to be honest. That will be the challenge for us. Apprentices are coming through. Ms O'Sullivan will elaborate further on what we are doing.

In terms of what we would ask of the committee or the Government, the 66 vacancies I am talking about relate to meeting our existing service obligations and covering seasonal demand as we go into the summer. People need their holidays and we try to cover that. That figure does not take account of the growth that is needed going forward. That is what I am signalling today. It is a big number over the next three years, between people who retire or who move. We are competing against the likes of Tesco, logistics companies and so on. We are in a full employment economy and we can see that people are moving on. The NTA wants to see a 70% increase in services in Limerick and a 50% increase in Cork. That is all coming down the line, not to mention the extra 100,000 students on the school transport scheme. There are thousands of good quality jobs sitting on one side of the funnel. We are doing what we can to ramp up our ability to recruit and train drivers and bring them on. However, we have to be careful. We can take people with a B-class licence and train them in three to four weeks but new drivers need time to become experienced. There is no point in putting them out there and then causing collisions. That is not to say that they do but we have to give drivers a chance to gain experience. We probably need six to eight weeks to be able to get good quality driving delivered in the way we want, to the standards we expect in the industry. That takes time to do.

Another big issue is the cost of people coming on in the short term. There are lots of things that we are trying to do. We have lots of open days and we go abroad. We are trying to get drivers in and get them trained but we need buses and other facilities to do that. We need all of these things put in place to do it. We will do everything we possibly can but a more structured approach is required. Some of the other national agencies should be involved, particularly with regard to advertising and training. A training scheme should be condensed into three or four weeks so that people can leave whatever careers they are currently in and know that they could possibly be ready to go in a short timeframe. We might take on some of the training after that, once we take people in. Even if we take in D-class drivers at the moment, we would still train them so that they can become familiar with the routes and so on. We still have to do that. I would involve the bigger agencies and have a more co-ordinated structure in place for advertising and training. Given the scale of demand that is coming at us, that would be enormously helpful. If that could be subvented to some extent, it would be paid back in terms of the tax take once we put those drivers into quality jobs. That is what I would ask of the committee and the Government.

For me, it would be a combination of several organisations, including the ETBs and SOLAS. SOLAS is doing some great work out there already, as is the National Apprenticeship Office. If the work could be unified, that would be great, with a proper campaign behind it. All of the players are here today and we are all looking for personnel. That is part of the solution. That said, we will not give up what we are doing. We have to continue to do what we are doing to recruit.

I have a number of questions on specific routes. There are issues that come up regularly in my own area.

I raised the 105X service with Mr. Kent before. It is very popular. There is a demand from the community for increased frequency. It largely runs at peak hours and is an express direct route from Ratoath into the city. I raise the 109A to DCU regularly with Bus Éireann and the NTA. I also raise direct routes from Ashbourne or Ratoath to the M3 parkway linking bus and rail. How do those decisions get made? Is it Bus Éireann working with the NTA? Does the NTA itself design routes? People are frustrated these services do not exist, or not in the way people would like.

It is done in concert with the NTA. The NTA ultimately decides. That is clear. On the demand assessment, apart from routing and network, many things influence it: housing builds, industrial locations, demand, capacity and roadworks. Many things influence whether there is an assessment.

The next question is about the level of frequency. We have found the NTA fantastic and forthcoming because so many routes around the country have moved from 30 minutes to 20 minutes and have additional frequencies put in. In a number of instances, not only has frequency increased but it is higher quality. Double-deck coaches have gone in around the Deputy's area. We are filling good-quality coaches at higher frequency and that is generating more growth. There are a lot of positives. When it is put in, everybody wants to see that it works, serves new communities and fulfils a need. Our planning team works with the NTA's. The real question is whether funding will be made available to deliver it. Typically, from the time we decide to do it, we need about 20 weeks to get something everybody agrees on and get it in. You have to work it through trade unions, recruit and get things deployed.

A perfect example of it is in the north east. We spoke about it here before. People use a large private commercial company operating from Drogheda and Dundalk for many years, in and out of the city. When the fare reductions were brought in, they applied to PSO services, including Irish Rail, Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus. If someone wanted to avail of that 20% discount on an annual ticket, which is a significant sum of money, they had to leave the provider who had provided their service for many years. That is the problem. To avail of reduced fares, you have to switch to a PSO service. Over time, the commercial company suffers.

We are, and we see it across the country at a different scale depending on where you are and as services develop. There are other issues coming down the track in relation to fares, because the national fare determination is coming from the NTA and will cap fares as the crow flies in the greater Dublin area. Eventually, that will go across the country and will hugely impact the commercial sector.

I am a County Clare Deputy so forgive me if I do not have many questions for Dublin Bus or Go-Ahead. They can make a cup of coffee for the next few minutes.

It was a bane of many families' lives last September and October trying to sort out school transport for their children and teenagers. There was much over and back for us in the political sphere trying to sort out local bus routes. For many weeks I wrongly believed and explained to parents that there was a Department of Education rule that a bus driver cannot be over 70 years of age. I kept on explaining that only to find out it was not a Department of Education rule but a Bus Éireann contractual rule. What is the continued basis for that over-70 rule? I was a schoolteacher for years and we often loaded up buses for hurling matches, trips to the swimming pool, etc., At 11. a.m., when it is not school drop-off or collection, any operator over 70 can collect a full bus, drive them and bring them back, but they cannot do it in the morning or afternoon. Is someone over 70 more dangerous on the road at 9 a.m. and 3 p.m.?

It is still largely about safety. We are different because we operate the school transport scheme. It is a policy we have in the company. We also have a policy that all drivers are vetted. That differs from other operators as well but is something we do in the interests of safety. We have had wide consultation on this given the scale of the service is now 9,500 routes. We continue to want to operate as safely as possible. There is such a degree of variability. Some people are familiar with taxis running and some will be familiar with minibuses. Others may not know we are running 80-seat double-deck coaches. The scale is enormous and we are trying to deliver it safely.

We are not unique because many other industries have limits. We see it in pilots where the limit of 60 years of age is there for safety reasons. In rail there are age limits.

We have tried to do some soul-searching. In circumstances like this when everybody is chasing extra drivers, we are still trying to make the right decision and it has to be an informed decision.

The information we have, in consultation with partners like the RSA, is that fatalities are increasing on the road and vehicles are getting longer, as well as two research studies we came across, one a 2012 Canadian study on truck drivers and buses and the other a 2021 European study. Both of those, especially the 2012 one, showed a 90% increase in the possibility of collisions from people aged 70 and 74. Somebody asked me if that 2012 study is still relevant today. The 2021 study said with ageing comes tiredness and all the things drivers do to mitigate against it. It is not only a trip in the morning. In many instances, they arrive in depots at 6 a.m., getting back from there at 10 a.m.or 10.30 a.m., going back out at 12.30 p.m. and coming back at 3.30 p.m. Hours of driving are put in.

The policy so far has served us well. We have Kentstown in the back of our heads from years ago when there was a very tragic accident. We do not want to be there given the scheme is expanding. That was not an older driver but there can be conditions attached to anything. We do not want a major incident when we are responsible for so many children. We are informed by the studies and the RSA.

We asked if there was anything else we could do and said we would co-operate with any study that might inform that. I understand the Department of Transport has been consulted on that and the Deputy will have to ask the Department if it will go forward on that.

Our position is that we are trying to operate it safely.

I brought it in. I am responsible for the operation of this company. I am trying to make decisions based on judgment. That is the basis of my decision, based on everybody I advise and my safety team about the instances that could happen. I am still making that decision in the best interests, I believe, of parents and children. That is where it is. If somebody else could provide additional research that said there was a different view-----

I have let everybody know, because it has been out in the public sphere, that this was not something everyone was asking. When it comes to the issue, if people think this will solve the problem, we have more than 2,000 drivers working for us, 0.7% of whom are between 66 and 70. That is the scale of it. If people think we are going to get 10% extra by widening that, we will not. On the other extreme, there is another interesting point, which I will bring to the attention of the committee. Britain recently decided to open up to 18 to 21-year-olds. That is because it feels it needs to get people into the pipeline and get younger people to make a career decision earlier, rather than starting their career and deciding to move. I do not know if that is a safe move but it might be a decision that could be well informed as we look into future needs. I am trying to be balanced. I genuinely do not believe we will unlock thousands of drivers with the 70 decision. If anything, it will just increase risk.

No one in this room professes to be a bus expert; that is the witnesses. Surely, it belongs in the realm of medical fitness, as mentioned. That must be paramount. Perhaps a lower tachometer for someone over a certain age could be used so they can fulfil certain tasks. It seems totally illogical that someone can pull up at the school gate at 11 a.m., take a full class to swimming and bring them back safely - for example, a retiree or someone who has large vehicle experience. My dad was a retired fireman and in peak fitness. He puts me to shame. When he retired, he had his large vehicle licence and went bus driving for a while. I know of many former soldiers who have large vehicle licences. While the workforce in Bus Éireann, Go-Ahead and Dublin Bus may be below a certain age, many private operators have hired these men and women with large vehicle licences. They have a bit more time. It is in rural Ireland. They have some contractual work during the week. It seems illogical, when there was a school bus crisis, that they cannot not drive over the age of 70.

I have another question. I am trying to adhere to the rule we have for everyone. I wish to ask the CTTC about tourism travel. I have a few of the offenders in my head but I will not name them and will not even suggest who they are. There is a big problem in our iconic beauty spots like Bunratty Castle and the Cliffs of Moher, in my constituency, which were marketed globally for years. People come to Ireland to see them. Now, they are increasingly advertised as photo stops on the tour itinerary. One's tourism experience of the west of Ireland often starts with boarding a coach in Dublin, going down to a photo stop, having lunch, another photo stop and coming back up for dinner. It is hollowing out tourism. Many an analysis has been done over the past 12 months as to why tourism is failing. A lot of it is to do with hotel bedrooms being tied up with offering accommodation. That is a fact and the Government is examining that issue. A lot of it is also down to how vehicles are licensed. It is Instagram tourism. It does nothing to support the model of sustainable tourism which we want in the west. In that vein is adherence to licensed routes. Some members are given a certain licensed route to go around these tourist areas because they are safe but they say to hell with that, they will go to the area that will get better photos. It seems that too many routes are guided by photo opportunities as opposed to what is safe and good for tourism. I am not blaming any of the witnesses but will they comment on where coach tourism is at in that regard?

For a few years, we ran a company based in Limerick going to the Cliffs of Moher and all that, doing a tour and picking people up at hotels in Limerick city and Ennis. We got good support but we found that once the motorway opened from Dublin, while we used to collect a lot of people off the train, that evaporated almost immediately when people discovered they could do the trip from Dublin on those coaches. I do not know whether it was something we needed to do in the mid-west or that the day tour people are of a different socioeconomic background. I take the point that there is no economic advantage from these people when they travel on day tours. It is economics - supply and demand. There is huge demand for that from Dublin. The demographic is perhaps students. There are older people but a lot are aged up to late 20s - that is the predominant group. At the moment, there are accommodation issues in County Clare but that is more on the extended tour side, for example, Lisdoonvarna is almost closed. Thankfully, the hotels in Ennis and in Limerick city are still open. Some, luckily, have taken the policy of helping the Ukrainian situation but keeping their doors open to the public.

The demand for this product is a worldwide phenomenon. One of my daughters is out in Asia. She is going from spot to spot. That is what goes on. They come in, they are here for three, four or five days and that is it. In Dublin, they go to Guinness and they go down to the cliffs. They might go to the Giant's Causeway and Galway. That is it. If you change that, you might impede demand for people coming to the country. You have to be very careful to get the balance right. Ireland is a relatively small country so it is important that we have what people want. They have a bucket list - the cliffs, Galway, Belfast and the Giant's Causeway. They are the number ones in the country.

I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. I have a few points. Going back to what Deputy O'Rourke mentioned regarding the 20% fare reduction, I accept there has been a certain element of unfairness concerning commercial operators. I note it was mentioned that it was made party policy at the Fine Gael Ard-Fheis. Unfortunately, we have a Fine Gael Taoiseach and it has not become Government policy yet, so that needs to change rapidly. We had it in our pre-budget submission last year to extend the 20% fare reduction to commercial bus operators. It is nice that the Government is catching up but hopefully it will catch up properly and actually do something about it.

The other issue is full buses. People are on to us all the time, particularly in Dublin. They wait at the bus stop, the bus comes and it is full. They wait, the sign flashes up, three minutes, six minutes and eight minutes go by and there is still no bus. The buses are full each time. Sometimes, when I inquire about this, I am told it is traffic congestion causing the delays. When I talk to people, they tell me it is not traffic delays, it is that the buses are packed all the time and there do not seem to be enough buses on the routes to provide the service. Will the witnesses comment on what can be done to resolve that issue?

We are operating 116 routes across the greater Dublin area and there are varying levels of demand across the whole network. We have a process where on a weekly basis we are looking at the demand for our services across all those routes. Basically, we are looking at information coming from the ticketing system, from the drivers, from our complaints system and from TDs who are representing their constituencies. We are taking all this information together and looking at it on a route-by-route basis to see where there are issues and constraints and the times of the day these are occurring. We meet the NTA every week to discuss all these issues. We then look to see where we can focus the limited resources we have now to provide the expansions to those services that are needed.

We have expanded about 10% of our network this year alone. Given the rate at which we need to increase numbers and resources for BusConnects and business-as-usual expansion, this is quite a lot for us. A process, therefore, is in place. Unfortunately, it does not meet everybody's requirements because everybody has different perspectives. If I were to talk to every TD in here, they would say they have a capacity constraint issue in their local area. I fully understand this but it does not always come to the fore when we look at the situation in detail and at the figures. While there may be anecdotal evidence on any given day that there may have been an issue, and this could have been caused by a myriad of different reasons, the capacity constraint is not always present. There are, though, times when it is there and we work closely with the NTA to try to address those issues and to put in place the additional capacity. This is how the process works and this is how we are dealing with matter now.

I agree with everything that Mr. Hann just said. We have similar processes with the NTA and also meet its representatives weekly. We have put additional services in place, for example, on our Dublin commuter services into the city, where we had seen quite acute issues in terms of capacity because the services had been so successful. We can see this in the year-on-year increases. Again, like Mr. Hann said, the pinch points are not consistent all the time. The NTA's role lies in balancing the needs of the overall growth programme with the need to increase capacity on the existing services and having the funding to do that. Equally, there is the aspect of us having the resources in the form of our drivers, mechanics and vehicles. It is about weighing up all these factors. We do, though, continue to invest actively but it is not a process we can complete overnight for the reasons we have been discussing.

The other aspect that I hear many people are frustrated by, and this is a Bus Éireann issue, is the necessity to book a seat. I refer, in particular, to airport services. A man from Ballyshannon rang me recently. He brought two people to the bus who were going to the airport to catch a flight. They did not know they had to book seats. They did not understand it. The bus arrived and although it was only half-full, they were not allowed to get on. The person driving these people in a van, because that is all he had, then had to bring them to the airport to get them there in time to ensure they could get their flight. There needs to be either more publicity around this booking issue or something else done around it. An awful lot of people do not know they have to book a seat when they want to travel by bus to the airport.

I thank the Deputy for that information. The one thing I can say is that the system is really working now. It takes time to build it. It used to be the case that 6% of our tickets were booked online, so we never knew who was travelling or who might be down the road. We would always have known who was in the departing station, but the difficulty for us was knowing what was down the road. Now, nearly 70% of all bookings are coming in online. It should be higher and it will get higher. We are probably a year into this campaign and we have another campaign just coming up to continue reminding people it is good to book a seat. At least if we know what the situation is, we can provide the additional capacity if we think it is commercially viable to do it. This is the other aspect because sometimes we do not have all the buses required. The system is informing the back office. We are deploying the resources and Mr. Parker's team provides the services. The system is, therefore, working much better than it did, but I accept the Deputy's point that we still need to inform people more about it.

We do overfill sometimes. We have so many departures now that we are trying to see if we can spread the loads onto those other departures. There may be services an hour before and an hour afterwards. We will sometimes contact those people and they have no problem making a change once they know they have a seat and the other bus is full. These are things we were not able to do in the past. The issue is partly frequency. We are limited by the number of buses we have, so there is no point-----

Yes, of course. We are not going to get into the best value fares with Bus Éireann's competitors in front of its representatives. Regarding the point mentioned by Mr. Kent, it is disappointing that the Government did not do any assessment of the potential impact on competition of changing the fares and introducing a 20% reduction for some but not for all. That was one of the things that should have happened.

Fair enough. The other issue I wish to raise is accessibility.

It is a bugbear of people throughout the country, particularly wheelchair users, who have to book in advance, and even then they often cannot do so. It is a problem probably for everyone in the sector, including commercial providers. Moreover, in the case of the bus stops that have been put in, in many cases the cycle lanes go between the bus stop and the bus, and people using bicycles or e-scooters are a danger to everyone, especially people who are visually impaired or wheelchair users or are elderly and are trying to get onto a bus. It is one of the major oversights in the planning and I cannot understand how it has happened. What pressure is being put on them, as the providers of the service, to get that resolved?

We are huge advocates of seeing whether we can do more of this. We have been making progress for years but it is still far too slow. Much of it relates to infrastructure and liaison with the council or with the NTA, which might be funding the stops. Many steps have to be taken. We work with a disability user group, which is a very good forum. It raises some of the concerns and we try to explain we will move through it where we can and make the progress we can, but progress has to be made on a county-by-county basis and with the councils. A lot of the infrastructure is going in, so there should not be any safety concerns when we have raised it, but it is an issue. Sometimes the issue is not even caused by this. In many instances, we cannot access the bus stops because cars park in them, and that is a huge issue. If we could resolve that, we would be doing more than even on the infrastructure for the stop itself. That is the main bugbear we have, and I am sure the other operators would attest to that.

On that and the disability issue, I understand a change is being made to the colour of the signage and bus stops throughout the country. For people who are visually impaired, there used to be a yellow sign, because they need great contrast, but now they are all a very bland, teal colour and there is no contrast. For a group of providers that deal with the disability services, I cannot understand how that has happened.

I would like to see the reference, because the National Transport Authority has designed some of the new TFI infrastructure and bus stops that are co-ordinated throughout the country and are being rolled out, in large measure, by a lot of our team, subcontracted and so on. Much of that has had input from the user groups. The colours that have emerged in that instance - correct me if I am wrong, and I can see a colleague at the back of the room - have had input. The ones the Deputy is talking about might be in a different location-----

Regarding cycle lanes and footpaths, particularly in Dublin, when coach tours that might do a city tour around squares and so on try to pull in to the kerb to allow people to take photographs or whatever, that is no longer available to us because they are pulling over, as the Deputy mentioned, to a cycle lane and the footpath is on the inside. That is just a comment. Maybe there could be a change of thinking for the popular areas for tours.

I welcome our guests. I was glad to finally hear disability and accessibility mentioned during the meeting, nearly two hours in. That is very positive. I will focus on those two issues. They were not mentioned in the opening statements. Climate change and sustainability were, but disability and access for people with disabilities were not. I would like our guests' organisations to make that a priority. More than 20% of people in the country have disabilities, but the people responsible for carrying thousands of people around the country did not once mention disability in their statements.

Following on from what Deputy Kenny asked about, the colour of bus stops is definitely an issue, and the NTA was very disappointing when its representatives recently appeared before the Committee on Disability Matters. I genuinely think it does not have the best interests of people with disabilities at heart when it should do, and that is something our guests’ organisations are all up against. The bus stops were all supposed to be yellow, but they are now only a bit yellow. Yellow is the last colour people can see when they are losing sight. That proposal came from people with disabilities and it was changed for them, but the NTA is rowing back on that. What the representatives of the NTA said about island stops and bus stops was that when they got people into the room, no consensus was found, so it just did what it had wanted to do. It did consult, therefore, but the consultation did not resolve anything and it just went against people with disabilities.

My fear is that one of these organisations' bus drivers is going to witness a serious injury when there is a collision involving a cyclist, someone who is visually impaired, someone who cannot hear a bell being rung, a wheelchair user or someone who is just frail and cannot get across the cycle track quickly enough. That is not on the organisations, given they do not design the cycle tracks, but it will be on their bus drivers, who are going to witness it. As a favour to people with disabilities and all the organisations’ customers, I would like them to rail against that and work with the NTA to resolve it. Hundreds of these stops are being rolled out throughout Dublin and the rest of the country and it would be a great action to come out of this meeting for the organisations to say they do not want that because they do not want injuries. I do not know whether it will be Dublin City Council or someone else who will be responsible for the claim that is going to be made when someone is seriously injured.

Turning to Bus Éireann, when a bus has been cancelled, is there any impact assessment? I refer to cases where someone reports a bus as having been cancelled, they are standing at a bus stop in the middle of nowhere, and they might be visually impaired and have no other way of getting home. I appreciate there is communication on Twitter, or X, and a mention of the regional operator but it is no good. What does Bus Éireann do for people when buses do not show up? It makes vulnerable people far more vulnerable.

In 2017, research showed that only 63% of Bus Éireann Expressway services were accessible. Has that number increased since then?

I would like the operators to supply me with an age profile of their fleets and the lifetime of a low-floor, single-decker or double-decker bus within the PSO service. It might be something they could revert to me on. How many low-floor buses are awaiting disposal and how many are taken out of the PSO service as a result of a new fleet having been purchased?

There is an issue with free travel whereby people are being charged to reserve a seat on the Bus Éireann Expressway. I appreciate it is a commercial operation, but surely someone with a free travel pass should not be charged to reserve a seat on Bus Éireann. Will that be reviewed?

Mr. Stephen Kent: They began as blue and, because of the input of those user groups, they have moved to the colour pallet that is being used and rolled out national

I have set out my issues with the NTA.

With regard to the private operators, what engagement have they had from the NTA about making their fleet accessible? As we know, the NTA has the power under the legislation to insist with their bus operating licence that they would be accessible. What has the NTA done to encourage private operators to purchase wheelchair accessible fleets and to support them in changing over? We know it is expensive. What is the expense for a private operator on a commercial fleet to change over to being wheelchair accessible and having next-stop audio-visual technology and these types of things if the NTA is not supporting private operators to change over? Matthews Coach Hire has revolutionised transport between Dundalk and Dublin for people in counties Louth and Meath. No offence to Bus Éireann but it was not really accessible before Matthews Coach Hire came in. What, if anything, is the NTA doing to support operators to be able to change over to accessible fleets? Has there been any engagement between the NTA and private operators whatsoever?.

I will respond on accessibility and Mr. Parker can respond on the vehicles. Just to put on the record, in my opening statement I allude to the fact we are supporting greater modal shifts to improve social accessibility and inclusivity. I want to put on the record that Bus Éireann is 100% committed to that in the company we operate and is trying to embrace diversity in all of its forms. The Senator asked a couple of questions about the vehicles; 100% of the Expressway vehicles are accessible but by lift not low-floor. That is one of the issues we have but the fleet is 100% accessible.

The Senator asked about the commitment to free travel for people who are free travel passholders. That has been raised within the group and is under review so it is something we have to look at. We do not have a technical solution just yet but we are trying to see it. On one side, we are trying to take a booking in to make sure we can accommodate them and do it but we need to come back on that.

The Senator also asked about vehicle age for public service obligation, PSO, and the age at which we retire the vehicles.

There has been a significant investment from the NTA over the last number of years and the average age of the PSO fleet is approximately five years. There is a wide range from brand new but we do have vehicles that are up to 13 or 14 years old at the minute. There has been a significant investment over the past two years and the target is a 12 to 14-year maximum life. Some city buses are staying within the system at the minute to support the imminent roll-out of BusConnects and waiting for the new zero-emissions fleet to come in.

On the accessibility side, 100% of the Bus Éireann fleet is accessible and 100% of the PSO fleet is accessible. That is a mix of low floor on the city and high-capacity fleet. The double-deck commuter coaches are now low-floor, ramp accessible. The coaches are lift accessible. Probably the biggest challenge for us, as cited earlier, is bus stop infrastructure and being able to use those lifts. To reiterate a point made by Mr. Kent, one of the really big challenges our staff and drivers have is parking at bus stops. Even on city services getting a bus in to deploy the ramp parallel to the footpath is a major challenge. We are working with the various agencies to address that but it really is a key enforcement challenge we and every operator need to have addressed.

The language used in our opening statement around the VAT 71 relief refers to low-floor buses so they are wheelchair accessible and look after mobility-impaired people. The Senator asked about the NTA and licensing; it is important to remember that as far back as 2018 and 2019 we had discussions with the NTA about accessibility on buses and coaches. The NTA commissioned a study to look at how to do this and how to roll it out. The idea was that a percentage of the fleet would have to be converted in accordance with a range of increments and ultimately licences would depend upon that. In fairness, Covid meant that operators would not have been able to soak up the cost of that. Unfortunately, in answer to the Senator's question, there is no funding from the State at present to support commercial operators. As our colleagues from Bus Éireann pointed out, with the PSO services all of those buses are provided courtesy of the State. From a commercial bus operator's perspective the operator must provide that vehicle, must pay the VAT and pay everything on top of that.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me in. I am not a member of this committee so I appreciate that. I am a TD in Kildare North so part of my consitituency would be within Dublin Bus. We also have private services and Bus Éireann. There will always be a certain number of complaints around lateness, buses not showing up, buses being too full - particularly the Bus Éireann buses - and buses driving past or disappearing. There is one route in particular. The 120 route and the 126 route are in the southern end of my constituency servicing Naas, Prosperous, Clane and Celbridge. The 115 route which goes to Kilcock is particularly awful. If I were to add up a list of all the complaints I get around public transport the 115 route would be out in front. It used to be a single decker bus and through a lot of local people agitating they managed to get a double decker bus. Last week there was an incident on the M4 motorway going out just past Lucan as it becomes the dual carriageway into a motorway. We do not what caused it. People on the bus who were constituents and who contacted me thought there might have been a blowout. They are not sure. The bus veered across the road into the middle of the dual carriageway. Passengers were left waiting for two hours for a replacement bus. They were told the replacement bus would come. The driver of the vehicle was a youngster and he was very good. I have written to Mr. Rory Leahy in Bus Éireann on this issue and have not had a reply yet. The driver managed to keep the bus from going on to the other side of the road which was marvellous because that could have been catastrophic. There seemed to be no health and safety organisation. The Garda never came out. The passengers could not get the front door open. It was like something one would see in a film. This was during busy rush hour traffic at 5.30 p.m. on a Tuesday evening and passengers had to disembark from the bus and cross the motorway. The Garda was not called. There were no proper safety instructions. Have the Bus Éireann representatives heard about this incident? Do they have a report on it? Why was there no bus available to come out and pick up those passengers? I know the residents of Kilcock have been agitated and have activated themselves greatly in order to get extra bus services put on for the 115 route. Surely to God there is a spare bus that could have been sent out to pick up passengers so they would not be left for two hours when something like that happens? Thank God it was not raining but it was a cool enough evening for people to be standing on the side of a motorway.

We are aware of the incident and it is currently under investigation. Various processes are under way. I know the Deputy has contacted Mr. Rory Leahy and I was speaking to him about this matter this morning. He will respond to the Deputy.

We need to go through the process of investigating what happened.

In relation to managing the incident, there were significant traffic delays. I was coming the other way and saw the delays all the way back in towards Liffey Valley. Getting a vehicle to the scene was the first challenge. The passengers were moved. It did take some time to move them. They were moved onto other buses, another 115.

That was until we could get a bus there. We used another bus that was coming. Two different buses moved the passengers.

Our maintenance team were deployed immediately, as was one of our supervisors from Broadstone. They got there as quickly as they could given the traffic congestion in the area.

We are treating the incident very seriously and we are investigating it. As I said, we got to the customers are quickly as we could to get them moved and to their destination.

In relation to the gardaí not attending, I will need to come back to the Deputy. As to whether they were in attendance, I am not sure of that detail. Thankfully, there was no damage to the vehicle and no injuries to customers. We are sorry for the delay involved. As I said, the investigation will determine what other actions we may need to take or follow up on.

Overall, there has been significant investment in the 115 service. There have been significant timetable enhancements. As the Deputy said, it is now operated predominantly by double-deck coaches and thereby really increasing the capacity. The punctuality improved substantially.

It was a very poor performing service. There was a massive timetable review. There is more reliability built into the timetable. There is more running time, unfortunately, because of the congestion, but that has improved the service. It is running 65% to 70% punctual. It is just about hitting our punctuality targets. There is more work ongoing on how bus priority might be put in place coming in, using hard shoulders. That is something we would fully support as it will help. As Mr. Kent outlined earlier, the more priority we can get, the more reliable and consistent running times we can achieve. As I said, there is more to do to make it better but there are definitely significant improvements today.

On Dublin Bus, Kilcock used be served by Dublin Bus many years ago. The reason Kilcock was taken off Dublin Bus was because the double-deck found it difficult to negotiate the corner in Maynooth town. Since then, the 115 has become a double-deck bus. I have written and spoken to Dublin Bus about it. Does Dublin Bus have any thoughts around bringing the C spine out to Kilcock?

Kilcock is a thriving town. It is only a couple of miles from Maynooth. Due to the cost of renting in Maynooth now, a lot of people live in Kilcock. Students rent in Kilcock to attend Maynooth University. It would be worth extending the C spine out to Kilcock.

At present, one has to give 24 hours' notice if one is a wheelchair user to use Bus Éireann. When does Bus Éireann foresee that not being a necessity and that all the fleet would be wheelchair-user friendly?

The challenge is that on our city and town services, which have low-floor ramp access, one just turns up and goes, and they are higher frequency and easy to roll on. On the coaches, that is lift access. As I said, seats need to be removed. There is only a single wheelchair space with lower frequencies. It is that piece of guaranteeing. We want to ensure when a customer books that the wheelchair space is ready and is guaranteed for him or her. I fully understand the desire to be able to turn up and go. In those lower frequency lift-access instances, we believe the 24 hour booking is appropriate to guarantee availability.

On the PSO side, the PSO coaches are now all low floor. The double-deck coaches are low floor, ramp access. The single-deck coaches on the rural service are also low floor and they are ramp access. On the Expressway fleet - we have touched on this - there is not a low-floor single-deck coach that has ramp access. That is a supply issue. They are all lift access, and hence the single space with the need to remove seats.

I thank the Acting Chair for allowing me to join the committee today. As he said, I am not normally a member of this committee but I am joining it because I have, like my colleague, Deputy Cronin, some local issues to raise.

Before I get on to those, it might be of interest to Mr. Kent, who talked about parking in the bus stops, that outside of what I am doing here today I chair the justice committee, which is where I normally am at this time on Tuesday afternoon. We prepared a report on parking enforcement, which has been laid before the Houses, etc. Hopefully, the Garda is paying attention as well. The report essentially states that we should not tolerate this, be it a van on Capel Street or a truck, a car or whatever else at a bus stop. Some people see it as a minor infringement but it is very serious and can lead to accidents and to impaired mobility for people trying to use public transport, etc. We are working on that. Maybe this committee, if it is doing a report after this engagement, might want to make reference to the justice committee report on that very issue. It may be of some assistance.

On local issues, I represent north Kildare. I heard my colleague talking about Dublin Bus serving Kilcock and, indeed, it used to. Bizarrely, it also serves Ballymore Eustace and Blessington, but it does not serve Naas, Clane, Straffan or any of the places in between. It goes to parts of the north east of the constituency and to parts in the south east of it but it misses all the bits in between. They are all of a similar radius from the city centre but, I think, there are historical issues. The witnesses might comment on that. I do not think there is any chance of getting Dublin Bus to go to Naas or Sallins any time soon but if there is, I look forward to hearing all about the details.

On the buses that serve us at present, I agree with the points made about the 120, 126 and 115. I use some of those services. I use the 120 and 126 occasionally, as do members of my family. It is fair to say the 120 has greatly improved. I have used it and found it to be a great bus. I have flown up and down here. Going home in the evenings, particularly after late sittings here, it is very good. The drivers are friendly and efficient. My experiences have been very positive, but my daughter has told me that she went to get the bus but it did not turn up. She had to come home, wait half an hour and go back and get another one. That happens, and I have direct experience of it as well as getting multiple emails and calls from constituents. Members of my family have been caught out by that. It is improving but it is not there yet. It is one to keep an eye on. The same goes for the 126 and, as my colleague mentioned, the 115.

I would invite the witnesses to make a note of that and to comment on it when they respond. When I raised it over the past four or five years, certainly post-Covid, the point was made that driver shortages were an issue and that it was hard to get drivers. The service industry, including public transport, changed after Covid and it was difficult to get people back to work in lots of different roles. People had found new skills and opportunities. Is that still an issue? Is that being tackled? Has that righted itself or where are we on that as an industry?

My next point is one for Dublin Bus. It is also a local point. In Leixlip, there was a direct service that served Confey - the 66B. It used come down the hill and go to the city centre and back again. There is quite a significant population living in Confey. It is almost a small village of its own within Leixlip. It has quite an ageing population who would have good use of the bus service. As part of BusConnects, one gets a bus down the hill, changes in the village centre and then goes into town. That is okay. I understand the logic behind it. I met with the Dublin Bus principals when Dublin Bus was rolling out BusConnects.

I suppose the preference locally would be a direct link from Confey to town, as was there historically. I do not know if that is something that could be looked at it. It would be very welcome if there was.

I see Mr. J.J. Kavanagh here today. I do not know if he is part of the group, so I do not know if it is fair to put the question to him directly. However, since he is in the room, I will ask him about one option. By the way, I want to thank J.J. Kavanagh and Sons for responding to my representations at local level on many occasions, including one around Dublin Airport asking why the bus was not running. He told me very frankly that is was not cost-effective anymore, and that bus is now cancelled. I appreciate Mr. Kavanagh's candour at least, even though I had to wait a little bit longer to get my bus home from that particular trip.

The 139 is a very good service, and one that I greatly welcome. It was a TFI service rolled out and now operated by J.J. Kavanagh and Sons. I have been given feedback that there was a new timetable rolled out about a month or two ago. There was great fanfare and it was welcomed. People are saying it is not operating yet. I do not know if that is correct or not. Mr. Kavanagh might tell me if it is actually in force yet. People are going down expecting to get buses on the new timetable and they are not there. They seem to have been told that it is on the old timetable. Mr. Kavanagh might clarify if the new timetable for the 139 has kicked in yet.

Still on local issues and the 139, there is no direct connection between two relatively major towns in the area, Maynooth and Straffan. You can get a bus from Clane to Maynooth for a coffee and into town - the 139 does that - or you can get a 120 that comes out through Celbridge, into Straffan, and it I think it goes off down to Edenderry eventually. However, you cannot actually get from Straffan to Maynooth. Straffan is really a satellite town, and a large village or a small town, while Maynooth is the hub town beside it. However, there is no public transport. There is a university in Maynooth, among other things, so there are lots of reasons we should connect the two even though they are only a few miles apart. As far as I can see, and it has been raised with me, there is no direct bus or public transport service between those.

I will make my last point because I want to give everyone a chance to come back in. It may be outside of the witnesses' control but I think individually and collectively they can feed into it. Regarding the TFI app, I use that regularly. I would look to see if a bus is coming, and I use the train service quite a lot as well. There is a phenomenon of ghost buses. It says the bus is coming for a long time, and then eventually the app falls away. I have a background in software - years ago, and long before this current job. What it has been saying in recent times is not that a service is on the way but that it is scheduled. It is not wrong. It is scheduled but it just has not turned up. The app is telling you correctly that there is a service scheduled in three minutes but 33 minutes later there is no bus, despite the fact that one was scheduled. Maybe the status could say "due", "imminent", "delayed" or "cancelled", or something else that would be of more help to someone on the ground. To know if it is scheduled, we could just get the timetable, and a PDF on your phone in your pocket. If it is a live app, it should be giving you live updates reflecting the reality on the ground.

I know there were a few questions there. I know I have jumped around a bit. If the witnesses want clarity, I am happy to give it but I want to give them a few minutes for the answers too.

We operate the 120 and 126 services so I thank the Deputy for his kind comments regarding the drivers and his own personal use of the service. As a general rule, our Dublin commuter services actually perform extremely well from a reliability point of view. From the start of this year, in terms of the lost kilometres that we control, we have actually operated 99.6% of those services. Of our total kilometres operated since the beginning of the year, it is 99.4%. We see those operating very well from a reliability point of view but we still see challenges around that congestion piece, which we have all mentioned and talked about in the committee meeting today with respect to reliability.

For us, on those services we get some key pinch points going through the likes of Maynooth and other towns that were mentioned. We can get caught up quite badly, and thus it makes us delayed in getting into the city. We made some changes to those services and put in some additional capacity on 26 November last year, which is not that long ago. That has performed really well. There is a 54% increase year on year from 2022 to 2023 in terms of passenger growth across the six services we operate in their different iterations. So far this year, we have also seen those services continue to grow. It just goes to show that you can run those services at least reliably, and there is a good bit of work still to do on traffic congestion.

On the ghost bus issue, as the Deputy is aware, the app is not an operator app but we feed into that. Our control teams, when a service is disrupted for whatever reason, mark the service as cancelled and that then feeds through to the app. If the scheduled time is, for example, 12.30 p.m., if it is not actually picked up or tracking and then when it is counting down that means it can see it. Where it disappears, it may be that there is a last-minute cancellation but the control team should absolutely be putting that in so, at least, the customer knows and can make informed decision on whether to wait for the next service or make alternative arrangements. However, we do drill it home that if there is disruption to the service for any reason, they mark that. At least for our services in that area, it is very much about the punctuality rather than reliability. With regard to our own staffing in that area, it is extremely good and we have a full complement of staff in our Naas depot - hence, why the reliability is so good.

The 115 is a Bus Éireann service to Mullingar. Again, we have reasonably good delivery. We are at 99% service delivery over the last four-week period. We do have issues; the Deputy obviously raised the issue about the incident we had last week, and we had to deal with that. That caused some disruption. Similarly, where we potentially do have cancellations, they should be marked up on the control system. I think it is only that if a bus is not tracking and there is an onboard system issue, that is when you would see the "scheduled" data.

We have had good delivery and strong passenger growth with significant service enhancements on the 115 over the last 12 months, including increasing the capacity with double-deck, low-floor coaches from the NTA. There has been good growth, and more to go but we are performing well.

The new 139 timetable was introduced on 1 April. It doubled the frequency from two-hourly to hourly. With the 139, we have a mobile app where anybody can track the vehicle on any of our services throughout the country through our ticketing system. Therefore, you can pinpoint exactly when the vehicle will arrive, and if it is going to be delayed or anything. Unfortunately, with the ticketing system we have to use with the NTA, that does not apply. However, I have not heard any issues with reliability or service levels. From what I know, we operate 100% of our services, which are from 6 a.m. until midnight, seven days a week.

There previously had been a direct link. What has happened is that under BusConnects' basic principle - it is an NTA project, and its final call - there is much more of a reliance on interchange. A lot of capacity is being added on the core routes. For example, on the C3 and the C4, which we operate, capacity was increased in October of last year. With the increased capacity and frequency on core routes, the interchange possibilities become much more practical. That is where the emphasis is at the moment. I cannot see a direct link out to Confey coming in the near future. If anything, the emphasis at the moment is to make sure that we have sufficient capacity on not just C3 and C4 but also C1 and C2. That is where the resources are going at the moment.

Deputy Lawless can come in again very shortly. I thank the witnesses for the answers. We are going to do an additional round, with two minutes per member. I am going to go first in the roster again. I want to ask Mr. Kent about Bus Éireann's Expressway service from Dublin to Limerick. That serves an awful lot of people in Clare, where I live. At the moment, there are five services per day from Dublin Busáras down to Limerick. On good old Google, I was able to go back and find old timetables going back a couple of decades. There used to be six services per day, and eight services per day at one point. It seems to be reduced. Bus Éireann Expressway has five services per day currently, and Irish Rail has 18 services per day on that Dublin-Limerick way. I wonder is it NTA I need to take this up with, or is it Bus Éireann's rivals in J.J. Kavanagh and Sons or Dublin Coach? Why is it a diminished service in the eye of the public? That is my question.

It is probably worse again because we do not operate it now. We came out of that service during Covid because it was not cost-effective to run. There were five operators on the road. It is a corridor that is so well served at the moment. We were incurring losses and we could not sustain it so we came out of it just at the end of Covid.

Mr. Kavanagh may wish to comment. Dublin Coach and Irish Rail are on that route.

Regarding the commercial corridors in general, this is a telling point and I would not have said anything different from the NTA. Many of the commercial services are experiencing fragile recovery. While there is growth, costs are also increasing for all, as the committee has probably heard play out. The price of diesel, wages, spare parts, maintenance and capital costs are all rising. Everything is there. We are trying to effectively run a service. Thankfully, the passengers are also there and we want to continue to operate the services but it is a fragile market. When a company is awarded a licence it is very important that a demand assessment be put on the corridor so that everybody has an opportunity to at least operate services at some level of return that will allow them to reinvest in the vehicles or afford a pay rise that people are likely to expect. That is why I say that those corridors are fragile but recovering slowly and will require further investment in the future.

One of the issues raised about the commercial operators was about the need for proper public transport management around events. The fact that there is no parking around Croke Park for coaches was mentioned. People have to walk a very long way to get to the stadium. Whose responsibility is that? Is it the responsibility of Dublin City Council? When an event is taking place who is responsible for ensuring that adequate parking is in place?

To obtain a licence for an event we apply to the NTA and in normal circumstances, the licence will be granted. We then have to get approval from the local authority where the event is taking place and for all stops that we propose to use along the route. We could be talking about four or five different local authority areas in which we would have to get approvals.

With Dublin in particular, the NTA has regular meetings with the local authority here. It has a task force and an expert group in place to determine safety and other aspects of events. Unfortunately, these meetings have only started taking place quite recently and the events are due to happen very soon. I think there is a concert here in two weeks time or next week. Matches will be taking place all summer. Our proposal is that when the event is announced, adequate capacity should be put in place to ensure that pick-ups and set-downs are part of the solution. If coaches bringing people, particularly from the country, are not able to access safe parking, people will not use them. If people have to walk for 40 or 50 minutes to get to a venue, particularly if they are only coming to Dublin a few times a year, they will be put off. People may not know where they are going. They may come out after an event at 10 or 11 o'clock at night and become disorientated, particularly younger people. It is very important that safe parking is part of the solution. If public transport is not being used, it obviously means there will be more cars travelling into the city to these events. This is a vital point.

Mountjoy Square was a regular parking area for coaches for many years. Somebody decided that, going forward, coaches would not be allowed into Mountjoy Square. In any venue around Europe, coaches get priority. Here, coaches are the last thing to be thought of. Say we drop a group at Croke Park today and the driver has to leave the area. He or she spends half an hour driving around trying to find safe parking. Then nobody knows where to access the coach on the way back because the driver will probably not get back to the same spot where the group was dropped off. The group is dispersed and it makes it very difficult and unsafe.

Last year, for the concert at Slane Castle there was a parking charge of €50 or €60 per coach. Nobody minds paying such a charge when the parking is well organised. The coaches drop off, park, pick up and go. For example, the Simmonscourt parking area of the RDS is close to the Aviva Stadium. No operator would mind paying €50 for its coaches to be parked safely there and people could alight and re-board safely.

There are four or five main venues in the city. There should be a straight, organised, prearranged plan that comes into place for each event in Croke Park or the Aviva Stadium. Our colleagues from Dublin Bus might panic but I suggest that we could use some of the bus lanes to park as long as we did not block a bus stop. Usually, the matches take place at the weekend when the traffic in the city is reduced. Obviously it could not be done during the week but at the weekend it might be feasible.

Yes, the position is the same there as it was the last time. That is helpful, thanks.

I touched on a number of routes the last time I was here and I specifically asked about the 105 route. I got a response from Bus Éireann and the NTA that a review of the schedule on that service would take place over the summer. Is this a standard thing that happens or will there be other reviews? The progress we have made in recent months is welcome. I presume there is contingency still in place so we have some private operators with smaller buses filling the gap. However, there are still some challenges on many of those services, including the 103 and 109 routes.

Each mechanic has responsibility for maintaining roughly seven buses. If we are six mechanics down, that is an issue. In Broadstone this morning, we had no problems so everything was out. It was a good day today and we are covering. We also have some mechanics in the pipeline.

If that is not the case, we have to deploy a contracted vehicle just to keep the service going. We do this and, unfortunately, it is a cost for us but, as has been said, we want to make sure we do not disappoint customers. A question was asked about the review of the schedule. All routes are continually reviewed. It is going through a cycle with the NTA. A number of routes were implemented in the first quarter and another bunch are scheduled for the second quarter. I do not have a timeline but I can revert to Deputy to tell him the next timeline for the 105 service. It is another commuter route so the likelihood is-----

I went through a number of local issues earlier so I will not recap them. On wider issues, as I mentioned I am the Cathaoirleach of the justice committee and over the past year or two we have been looking at the licensing laws in some detail. The witnesses are familiar with the proposals to extend opening hours. There have been mixed reactions from publicans and pub goers. A key element would be later and more extensive public transport. Is this sector ready for this yet? What are the views of the witnesses? It strikes me that perhaps we are not quite there yet. We need to have the various support systems in place, including public transport and security on public transport for the drivers as much as anyone and for the users before we do this. What are the views of the sector?

I thank the Deputy for the question and I thank him for the intervention he made earlier regarding the enforcement of bus lanes. We are crying out for bus priority and this includes the enforcement of the lanes that are there. We really appreciate it. I do not have a specific answer to his question but we are the only 24-hour bus operator in the country at present with regard to the services we provide. One of the issues we find on the services when they are very busy is antisocial behaviour, particularly on the quays. We work very hard with An Garda Síochána on this. If we are looking to extend licensing hours, we need to have a look and make sure there will be no unintended consequences with regard to antisocial behaviour.

With regard to increasing demand for the services, we would need to look at it with the NTA to see what is the potential increased demand, what level of additional service we would need to put on for it, how many buses we would need and how many drivers we would need. I am not aware that this exercise has been done yet, unless one of my colleagues tells me differently.

As BusConnects has been rolled out, 24-hour services have been added incrementally. At present 14 routes have a 24-hour service. We have had Nitelink services on Fridays and Saturdays for many years. There are quite a lot of services there at present. As Mr. Hann said, the demand is growing and it is a question of managing the growth.

From our perspective we operate a 24-hour service in Cork and there is also one in Drogheda. Equally some of the Expressway services run for 22 hours. We have some experience of doing it. At places such as stations and Busáras, it is about making sure that when crowds gather there is some orchestration and organisation around it. This is the main issue.

There is definitely demand there. We see it in the Drogheda services and the late-night services to Mullingar. We see significant capacity challenges on the midnight, 1 a.m., 2 a.m. and 3 a.m. services. We see people using them. The value is there and the service is there. It is about being ready for the demand and coping with it, along with some of the added potential antisocial issues that we find at those times.

Many commercial operators also operate services more or less 24 hours a day. Christmas Day is the only day we are not on the road 24 hours. As Mr. Parker said, we have all seen increases in demand on services at night. It should be borne in mind, and this is only a personal opinion, that our drivers are lone workers.

Some of the drivers came before the committee a few weeks ago. That was different debate. That day all members expressed their gratitude to the drivers. Today on behalf of the committee, I express gratitude not only to drivers but to all of the people in the organisations who make the bus service work. It is not perfect but show me a service that is. Most members of the public place a high value on what all of the bus providers do. They appreciate when the bus pulls up on a rainy night and gets them a bit closer to home after a day's work, school or whatever it may have been. The committee is very grateful for what they continue to do. We look forward to engaging with them in future. On behalf of the members, I thank the witnesses for assisting the committee on this important matter.